Urgente noticia sobre seguridad/Urgent security notice

[itzelfong]

Hola Todos..
Con respecto a los trillos o caminos improvisados que abren por ahí, son definitivamente una invitación, puertas de acceso y escape para malechores.
El proyecto actualmente cuenta con varios senderos para el disfrute de la naturaleza. Ejemplo la calle Maipo... sin embargo debo confesar que la última vez que fui estaba bastante descuidado ese sendero.... creo que la gente casi no lo usa... y sería bueno que un guardabosque se caminara eso todos los días para detectar cualquier presencia de gente sospechosa en el monte... a esta altura confieso que no me atrevería a entrar a la Calle Maipo a observar aves.. y que tal si me sale un maleante en el camino??? QUE DIOS NOS PROTEJA!

La verdad es que vamos a tener que mantener todos los propietarios ESTRECHA Y CONTINUA COMUNICACION via foro... etc.. y quizá también un programa de "CONOCE A TU VECINO" (sea casa o lote, no importa)... para poder telefonear de inmediato si vemos presencia de gente sospechosa en el área y confirmar si son o no trabajadores permanentes, contratistas o quiza gente que anda por ahí merodeando viendo qué oportunidades tienen de cometer un atraco...

Para mis vecinos inmediatos... de el TORREON 170 Y 171 (no tengo casa, sólo lotes), escribirme a mi correo para intercambiar teléfonos y saber quien es el propietario al lado, al frente y atrás... itzelfong@hotmail.com

Para combatir a los maleantes, debemos ponernos todos ALERTAS y en COMUNICACION PERMANENTE... porque la criminalidad lamentablemente está azotando al pais y Cerro Azul no va a ser la excepcion... claro está, todos a tomar medidas, incluyendo la ADMINISTRACION, con un eficiente uso de los $7,000 mensuales que tienen para el rubro seguridad. Y espero que no se les ocurra subir la cuota, porque eso sería inaceptable.

saludos,

[san]

Agradezco a los responsables del foro, envien una copia de este mensaje, al Ingeniero Correa.




Los robos a mano armada que sucedieron la semana pasada son altamente graves, y el hecho que la Policia arresto a los maleantes, es muy bueno, pero no es suficiente como para dormir tranquilos. Gracias a Dios no hubo muertos, a pesar del revolver y la escopeta que usaron los delincuentes.

El problema que tenemos, es la falta de prevencion en la seguridad.
Desde mucho tiempo atras, como lo observaron otros propietarios, llega mucha gente ajena al Residencial, especialmete los fines de semana, y que aprovechan de los senderos, balnearios y cascadas, dejando mucha basura, como lo señalo el Sr. Eloff.
Como entran ?
En el pasado se le ha requerido en varias ocasiones a la Administración, un mayor control en las entradas.

Los dos residentes que fueron asaltados violentamente y robados, deberian contarnos como ocurrieron los hechos, y tambien el jefe de la Seguridad, y la Policia, ya que en ese foro las diversas versiones no coinciden, y eso da espacio para rumores...se dice que los ladrones durmieron en la selva...despues de haber robado computadores y otras cosas y en epoca de lluvia, con tantas casas desocupadas a su alcance, es dificil creerlo. Tambien, la version de los hechos por parte de la Administracion, no corresponde con el testimonio del Sr. Latorre.

Una tercera persona, el Sr: John James Cilliers, propietario de Alcazar 16 y 17 y Fortaleza 123, a quien los delicuentes no robaron nada, trata con muchos mensajes en el foro, de explicarnos la "informacion correcta" y se dice victima de los ladrones y tambien de los rumores.
Para ser preciso, uno de los rumores es que los ladrones durmieron en una de las casas del Sr. Cilliers, lo que por el momento no fue confirmado por los oficiales de la Policia.

Lo que si sabemos, y que es importante que todos los propietarios sepan, es que el Sr. Cilliers utiliza sus casas como hotel, llamado " El Nido" .

Los invito a visitar la pagina web : elnidocerroazul.com

Donde podran leer que este "HOTEL BOUTIQUE" ofrece: 2 suites con capacidad de 3 personas, un apartamento de 5 a 6 personas, 3 cabañas de 2 personas, una CASA VERDE de 9 personnas, una CASA GRANDE de 20 personas. Una capacidad total de 47 clientes!
El precio, bien accesible, desde 25 Balboas la noche, da a los clientes, ademas, "derecho" al CLUB, piscina, cancha de tennis, y mas, tambien a los Balnearios y rios de Los Altos de Cerro Azul.
Pueden hacer reservaciones llamando al 6247 9078 o al 6678 8372

Todo eso y mas informaciones en : elnidocerroazul.com

Las buenas intenciones sociales del Sr. Cilliers, de dar la oportunidad a gente de bajos recursos de conocer nuestro Residencial tan exclusivo, y nuestro Club, pueden llegar a tener efectos negativos.

Me permito recordar a los propietarios que:

1 - Desde que empezo el Proyecto, estamos en una Zona Residencial reglamentada por el MIVIOT, y que cualquer tipo de negocio estuvo siempre prohibido.
2 - El Club lo pagamos nosotros (4.500 balboas al mes), y es supuestamente para el uso de los propietarios.
3 - Al entrar tanta gente sin verdadero control, nos exponemos a problemas de seguridad.

Que no me interpreten mal, no digo que el Sr. Cilliers sea responsable de los atracos ocurridos.

Digo, que la ley y los reglamentos deben ser aplicados a todos, que la entrada al Residencial debe ser mucho mas estricta, que las rondas de noche deben ser mas frecuentes, enfin que un nuevo plan de Seguridad mas eficiente sea definido y enforzado.
Espero que se pueda discutir esta situacion en la reunion del sabado, para encontrar una solucion immediata, y que no sean solo promesas.......

Nos vemos el sabado.

[alexander777]

Muchas buenas ideas y mejor informadas se podrían aportar si el reporte oficial de la policía se pudiera hacer disponible en este foro (removiendo cualquier información muy personal o no pertinente a la reunión del Sábado).

Mejoras orientadas a garantizar la seguridad tanto de los residentes como la de los empleados se deben hacer lo más pronto posible, pero con la información que se conoce hasta el momento nos preguntamos si habrá quedado claro que:
-lo ocurrido no tuvo mucho que ver con la eficiencia de los actuales procedimientos de seguridad en Altos de Cerro Azul,
-la alarma “fue sonada” por la pronta diligencia de uno de los empleados (esperemos que le den crédito),
-los rumores, interpretaciones y “rápidas conclusiones” por parte de algunos propietarios pudieron haber sido producidas por la lógica sensación de vulnerabilidad derivada de lo escalofriante del evento.

La seguridad y otros temas de alta importancia anteriormente discutidos en este foro se pueden conversar y mejorar con respeto y buena voluntad, pero “si no se es Razonable y Prudente” utilizando información correcta entonces se podría llegar a causar incluso hasta más daño en las relaciones de nuestra pequeña comunidad que el daño causado por estos malhechores.

Los diferentes intereses de cada propietario y lo heterogéneo de nuestra comunidad hacen un tanto complicado ponerse de acuerdo pero nuevamente hacemos referencia a la Prudencia y esperamos que sea tomada en cuenta en la reunión de este fin de semana.

Es bien sabido que en algunas comunidades privadas hay residentes con estatus económico por encima del promedio y por consiguiente, estos incidentes son desafortunadamente difíciles de evitar con procedimientos “Razonables” (mas no imposible). Medidas que estorben las actividad regulares o que tan solo hagan sentir incómodos a los demás (propietarios y empleados) NO evitarían que algo parecido vuelva a suceder.

Si la información que resulte de la reunión del fin de semana es pronta y fidedigna entonces nos ofrecemos para investigar sobre alternativas de vigilancia y seguridad usando la “disuasión preventiva” e infraestructuras como Internet (ya disponible en muchas casas de propietarios). Cualquier alternativa que encontremos, después de ser consideradas se podrían utilizar a nivel individual y/o colectivo.

Luis Gonzalez

[itzelfong]

Hi all: Just a brief note to clarify or translate my previous comments, (do not trust Google Translator 100%) Perhaps it was interpreted as I was blaming someone about these incidents... Im not.

My comments were made only as ideas to prevent incidents in the future, in brief: 1. Do not open more trails, as we already have enough and they need maintenance and vigilance. 2. Getting to know your neighbor (name, contact details as cellphone and email) in order to call them inmediately if you see any suspicious activity in their property and to discard it as a threat. Sometimes thiefs can be disguised as workers, contractors, visitors). 3. We all need to be alert, in Cerro Azul or any other place in Panama... and to keep constant communication via this Pacar Foro, and also with your direct neighbor. and 4. I agree that Administration has to use the funds they already have for Security in an efficient way, I do not see the need of a raise in the maintenance fee.

Regards.
Itzel

[IanEloff]

FORCED CORRECTION of my Intentions of giving a REWARD for the capture of the CRIMINALS:

On the Friday after Marco and Cindy were robbed, myself and Jennifer unilaterally decided to offer a $1,000 reward for the capture of the Criminals (dead or alive).
This was to be shared between the Police and Our Security team. I did not think think it would create a problem, but it has.
Eduardo declined my generous offer, on behalf of his team - as did the police. It appears that they cannot be seen to be taking money from the public they serve - it looks bad.

So we will have to find another way of saying "THANK YOU" to our security team for their great work, as well as the Police.
May I suggest we think of giving all of the workers here a generous Christmas bonus? They really deserve it!

As for the meeting - a 30 minute monologue in Spanish, followed by a 1 minute translation in English, with so many English speakers present, really did not do it for me.
Especially since the 4 victims were English too. I saw a lot of people just leave. It was not useful. It just left me extremely frustrated. No solutions, no answers, lots of stress going unrelieved.
As most of the people who live here 365 days a year are English, and they are the ones therefore most at risk, I would like to suggest that an attempt be made to have a translator present.
The meeting soon decayed into a general COMPLAINTS session - discussing things such as street-lights and alarms (nice to have) which, keeping in mind the remoteness of the Victims homes
and the fact that they were all robbed in broad daylight, was interesting, but kind of besides the point.

What did come out of this meeting, was that these thieves used alternate paths into Cerro Azul (which means that they must have hiked in in daylight hours, as doing that at night is impossible)
and that they knew a lot about Cerro Azul - I mean, 7 years living here full-time and I don't know where those paths are! They must have been in here before and even maybe had expert help.
HOW? WHO?

Jen and I have watched in the last year or 2 how the Recreation area of the river now has BUSLOADS, MINIBUSES, TAXIS and other MASS-TRANSPORT vehicles bring in what by now must be > 1,000 people
to enjoy the island, pools, BBQ pits etc. below our home. It's pretty obvious that these are not owners - most are 15-30 year olds. Since there is a 7-person limit per owner, how is that happening?
I asked some of them, and they said that they all paid $15 each to come into our home-community, use it (dirty it up) then leave us to pickup their garbage.
This a recent development. It did not happen 2/3/4/5/6/7 years ago. It's happening now almost every week.
The Mess, loud music and drinking is a problem - BUT worse yet, ALL of these people get inside knowledge of CERRO AZUL, talk with others and spread the word.
Then pretty soon people in San Miguelito etc. are getting ideas ... bad ideas!
Besides us not getting any benefit from that Money - what's it for us property owners? TROUBLE!!!!! That's what. No money - JUST TROUBLE, MESS, NOISE etc.

I Propose that we ask SECURITY to enforce the 7-only rule, and deny any MINI-BUS, BUSLOAD or TAXI entrance.

We paid a lot to buy here - we pay to live here, we pay for the upkeep - these guests that someone is making $15/person for, do not.
They have no STAKE in CERRO AZUL - and really do not care, and from there the information spreads.

It would be nice if MANAGEMENT kept us informed as to what exactly the POLICE find out about these THUGS - like How they heard about us and how they knew so much about Cerro Azul.
Obviously if a TAXI was the getaway car (My Son and his friend were picked up and robbed in a Taxi) we should just simply outlaw TAXIS inside the Gated areas. Not perfect, but it's a start.

And we, the permanent residents, should really make an effort to all meet on a fairly regular basis to discuss issues and concerns.
United we stand - divided we fall! A little known fact is that we actually own Cerro Azul - that's not appreciated by all owners.
Melo, nice as they are, helpful as they are, are just it's current managers - and they serve with our consent and best wishes.

Our thanks to Eduardo and his security team, and Senior Correa (The Manager of Los Altos) for their excellent work!
As well, as to the police who did catch them in the end - and just in time, and to the alert lady at Goofy Lake who reported the robbers as suspicious!
However, now that we know what happened (more or less) clearly we can do even better at preventing this from happening again.
Property values (for all of us, including the Melo properties) will suffer to the tune of Millions of $'s cumulatively, if we do not succeed.
PLUS (even worse) our enjoyment of Cerro Azul and our peace-of-mind will suffer.

So many good ideas ... Thank you all for them.
I hope we can translate some of them into actions!

Regards,
Ian and Jennifer Eloff
C7 El Alcazar.

[svdns]

Hi, everyone:

Both of us are sad to have to read all these communication/information emails about the crimes occurred last week. And although not present, our hearts are there and so are our thoughts. First of all, for sure, the most important thing to remember is that nobody got physically hurt. However, like some others at this forum, we were victims of a brutal home invasion and carry the emotional scar with us forever. One of the main reasons for moving to Panama nine years ago and seeking out a safe place, thus Cerro Azul.

A couple of comments about the result (or failure) of the meeting on Saturday: Language issues: in ALL past meetings, as few as they were, two things were noticeable: one, the expectations of the proprietors to have Vistamares conduct the meetings in English, and Vistamares, to have the interested parties provide a translator for their benefit too - thus, being able to hear and respond to the questions asked. TWO: the mixture of accusations, unrelated issues being brought forward and ultimately, a mess of a meeting, with few people able to come with their message across.

Even with a short time on hand, a bi-lingual minutes of meeting to be distributed in advance would help - and get the volunteers forward to translate the conversation. There are lawyers, business people, even judges in our midst: get one of them to be the time keeper - and give clear power to those person to keep order. Get them to keep the meeting focused on the issue being brought forward. Otherwise, it will be a repeat of so many years gone by and a lot of unhappy people, and the administration a reason not to get involved in them any longer.

We should stop indeed with singling out the "foreign residents" as "us" as we are in Panama, living amongst and with Panamanians and other nationalities, and they have been targets too and they are certainly trying to be part of the so called "us", but it is THEIR land, their place. The same goes for full time residents as for part time residents - we all have wested interests there.

The main suggestion to pass along: Not long ago, a friend of a friend introduced us to a gentleman, who headed (or still does) some huge security detachment in Central and South America - and is in close contact with such development in other countries. And his family have a home in Cerro Azul. I can't remember his last name, but his first name is Omar and i do have his number here, if interested. His home is on your way to going to Conchita's house. Being a person with a property there for years and years, and fluent in English, with professional experience in security in our region as well, may give us some needed support and usable guidance.

In the meantime, the given suggestion of "neighbourhood watch" is a good one, and people that notice some strange behaviour or presence of unknown individuals should find a venue to communicate this quickly and with someone that is versed in both languages.

It's a hard time for everyone, but a very hard lesson learned that may be the opening to finding a way to securing our homes and our family in better ways and able to move forward together. Our thoughts are with all.

Sandra & Rene

[itzelfong]

ENGLISH BELOW
Señores Administradores de Cerro Azul y Propietarios:

1. Seria una buena idea que la Gerencia de Cerro Azul, posteara en este foro - en un nuevo tema - los detalles de la reunión, y lo que se acordó en ella o quedó pendiente de decisión. Y una traducción en inglés para que los propietarios de habla inglesa puedan estar informados y aportar. Esto no tiene que ser una traducción perfecta, pero para que TODOS nos podamos entender. A futuro por favor enviar por medio de este foro el Orden del día (temas a tratar) y las reglas de la reunión.

2. Yo estoy supremamente preocupada por el post del Sr Ian que menciona lo de los visitantes en TRANSPORTES MASIVOS y lotes de gente en nuestras áreas verdes, esto TODAVIA ESTA pasando??? Es cierto, mientras menos control sobre visitantes, trabajadores y contratistas...más oportunidades para los maleantes.
Aprovecho para emitir mi opinión personal sobre el tema de los negocios pequeños u pequeños hostales en Cerro Azul: YO NO ESTOY CONTRA DE ELLOS, es obvio que como todo, debe llevarse un control y medidas de seguridad... pero qué de malo hay en que vengan turistas genuinos a quedarse en un hostal y visitar el área?

3. les recuerdo a todos que los ladrones no conocen distinciones de pasaporte, credo ni lenguajes. Cooperemos todos por favor.
Saludos,

ººººººººººººººº
Cerro Azul administrators, propietors: (sorry for my english)
1. It is a good idea to post in this FORO - a new subject - the details of the meeting, and the outcome or pending issues of it. A basic english translation should be sent, in order to keep english speakers included, so they can participate. Traduction does not have to be perfect, but it is very clear that we all need to be in communication. For next meetings, please circulate in advance the AGENDA and the RULES of the meetings.

2. I am REALLY CONCERNED about the information posted by Mr Ian, about the MASSIVE TRANSPORTS and lots of people, is this situation STILL HAPPENING? It is true, the less control over visitors, workers and contractors, the more opportunity for the thiefs. A take this opportunity to clarify my personal position in regards to small business and small hostals: IM NOT AGAINST THEM, it is obvious that, as everything, it has to exist some control over it and security measures etc... but I think there is nothing wrong in genuine tourists visiting and staying in some small hostal???

3. Again, remember... thiefs do not make any distinctions among passports, religion or languages... please lets all cooperate..

Saludos,

[GDN43]

We are in full agreement with the comments and suggestion from Ian and Jennifer Eloff.

The security guards deserve some recognition for their efforts in helping to capture 3 of the 5 robbers. As employees of the Melo Group we could prepare a letter and perhaps certificate signed by property owners that could be delivered to then thrrough the Melo administration.

As far as the large number of non property owners entering the recreational areas is concerned, this must be controlled by enforcing existing regulations as well as implementing new rules that enhance the safety and value of our investment. These regulations should consider property owner inviting family and friends separate from property owner performing commercial activity with bus load of paying guests.

I suggest that property owners submit suggestion to Ing. Correa via email where he can meet with a small group and have a more effective meeting to sort out which actions are more feasible considering cost and the diversity of points of view.

The success of any measure adapted to enhance security, property value and the natural beauty depends heavily on the property owner acceptance and cooperation.

Fred and Biddy Warren
Guardian 43

[John James Cilliers]

Para todos los demás habitantes de Los Altos.

Cuando se trata de la seguridad y el mantenimiento de Los Altos de Cerro Azul Estoy seguro de que todos los propietarios hablan de una sola voz.

No barreras existen.
Al otro lado de nacionalidad, idioma, residentes permanentes o personas que tienen casas de vacaciones que todos queremos lo mismo.
Todos queremos que Los Altos de ser un lugar seguro, muy bien cuidado de la belleza natural y la paz.

En este sentido hay exisiting reglas.
(1) Hay una regla que cada persona que trabaja en Los Altos debe tener un pase de seguridad.
Este paso debe contener su foto y número de cédula. Ningún trabajador puede entrar sin que esto pase.
(2) Los visitantes tienen que proporcionar sus nombres y números de Cédula / números de pasaporte.
El propietario que se invita a los visitantes a la comunidad tiene que asumir la responsabilidad de sus visitantes, proporcionando esta información para la seguridad por delante de los visitantes que llegan. Este informnation se mantiene luego en la oficina y se le dio a la seguridad y en la puerta.
(3) Hay un 7 persona al límite de propiedad a la entrada del club.
(El club no es la propiedad de los dueños de Los Altos)
Las 7 personas que pueden entrar en el club de forma gratuita, los huéspedes del propietario. Después de que haya un costo de $ 5.50 por cargo por persona para el resto de personas (más allá del límite de 7 personas)
(4) No hay forma de transporte público está permitido dentro de Los Altos. (No hay taxis, colegiados o Diabolo Rojo) Sólo los vehículos privados.

En respuesta a los comentarios que hacen residentes en El Nido (Mis propiedades privadas en Los Altos)
(A) Tengo 16 años, 17 Alcázar y 123 de La Fortaleza. Nombré mis propiedades El Nido.

(B) no es dueño o ejecutar un negocio en Los Altos. Estos son mis propiedades privadas.
Yo vivo en el 16 y 17 de Alcazar. Alquilo 123 La Fortaleza. Yo uso los fondos para los gastos de mantenimiento, conservación y otros asociados que tienen propiedades en Los Altos.

(C) que tienen las mismas responsabilidades y derechos como cualquier otro propietario privado en Los Altos. Esto incluye el derecho a alquilar mi casa, de conformidad con las normas y reglamentos de la comunidad. Sigo estas reglas a rajatabla. Ofrezco una notificación por escrito con el nombre y número de cédula de mis visitas a la administración y la seguridad antes de llegar. También tomo la responsabilidad personal de mis visitantes y acompañarlos.

(D) Cuando mis visitantes van al club de entrar en el club, mis visitantes (Lo mismo que todos los otros propietarios) el mismo 7 persona y por regla de propiedad se aplica.

(E) Mi propiedad 123 La Fortaleza fue asaltada durante la ola de robberies.They rompió una puerta de cristal y una ventana para entrar no sabía esto, ya que no vivo en esa casa y que estaba cerrada con llave. La información que he recibido de la seguridad es el siguiente:
La seguridad vio la puerta de cristal roto cuando pasaron. Eso alertó a la seguridad de la situación.
Cuando se investigó la seguridad ....... los ladrones huyeron. No lograron robar nada de mi casa. He publicado esta información en el foro Pacar.

(F) El hecho de que no figuraba en la reunión se debía a que los asistentes a la reunión se trataba de un encuentro caótico. Traté de hablar en la reunión, pero nunca se le dio una oportunidad.

No puedo ver los datos personales de la persona que envió mi nombre y el de mis propiedades en el foro Pacar. Por favor, puede que esa persona o cualquier otra persona que quiera más información acerca de mí, mi familia o mis propiedades, por favor póngase en contacto conmigo personalmente. Mis datos es el siguiente:
John James Cilliers
Yo vivo en el 16 Alcazar
Celular: 67776112
Casa: 2977157
E-Mail: chagrespark@gmail.com

John Cilliers

[John James Cilliers]

To all fellow residents of Los Altos.

When it come to the security and the maintenance of Los Altos de Cerro Azul I am sure that all the property owners speak in of one voice.

Not barriers exists.
Across Nationalities, languages, permanent residents or people that have holiday homes we all want the same thing.
We all want Los Altos to be a secure, beautifully maintained place of natural beauty and peace.

To this effect there are exisiting rules.
(1) There is a rule that every person working in Los Altos must have a security pass.
This pass must contain their photo and cedula numbers. No worker can enter without this pass.
(2) Any visitors has to provide their names and Cedula numbers/passport numbers.
The owner that is inviting these visitors into the community has to take responsibility for their visitors by providing this information to the security ahead of the visitors arriving. This informnation is then kept at the office and given to security and at the gate.
(3) There is a 7 person per property limit at the entrance to the club.
(The club is not the property of the owners of Los Altos)
These 7 people that can enter the club free of charge as the guests of the owner. After that there is a $5.50 per person charge for the other guests (past the 7 person limit)
(4) No form of public transport is allowed inside Los Altos. (No Taxis, Collegial or Diabolo Rojo) Only private vehicles.

In response to the resident making remarks on El Nido (My Private properties in Los Altos)
(A) I own 16, 17 Alcazar and 123 La Fortaleza. I named my properties El Nido.

(B) I do not own or run a business in Los Altos. These are my private properties.
I live in 16 and 17 Alcazar. I rent 123 La Fortaleza. I use the funds for the maintenance, upkeep and other costs associated with having properties in Los Altos.

(C) I have the same RESPONSIBILITIES and rights as any other private owner in Los Altos. This include the right to rent out my house in accordance with the RULES AND REGULATIONS of the community. I follow these rules to the letter. I provide a written notice with the name and cedula number of my visitors to the administration and the security before they arrive. I also take personal responsibility for my visitors and accompany them.

(D) When my visitors go the club they enter the club as my visitors (The same as all the other owners) the same 7 person per property rule apply.

(E) My property 123 La Fortaleza was broken into during the spate of robberies.They broke a glass door and a window to get in. I did not know this as I do not live in that house and it was locked. The information that I received from the security is as follows:
The security saw the broken glass door when they passed. That alerted the security to the situation.
When the security investigated.......the robbers fled. They did not manage to steal anything from my house. I posted this information on the Pacar forum.

(F) The fact that this did not feature in the meeting was because the people at the meeting was dealing with a caotic meeting. I tried to speak at the meeting but was never given a chance.

I can not see the personal details of the person that posted my name and that of my properties on the Pacar forum. Please can that person or any other person that wants more details about me, my family or my properties please contact me personally. My details is as follows:
John James Cilliers
I live at 16 Alcazar
Celular: 67776112
Casa: 2977157
E-Mail: chagrespark@gmail.com

John Cilliers