Reunión de propietarios 2016

[colmport]

This forum provides a great sounding board for all voices in our community to be heard. Thanks to those who promote and maintain this forum.

Today I saw a post by Sr. Munoz. His idea of using the internet, such as WEBEX to allow all of us to be involved in meetings is fantastic. Those of us who are Neanderthals never thought of this option! This would be perfect. We could all participate from our homes or offices without the necessity to be dragged into Panama City in the middle of a work week. Can this be arranged? How?

I also agree with Dan's ideas regarding the Club being owned by the community as a community resource. There is one huge problem with the idea of contracting it out as a concession. Although the Club and the pool are benefits to the community as a whole, just as they are at condominium complexes to which the HOA wants to mirror in Cerro Azul with individual residential dwellings. These increase our property value and are quality of life enhancements. What Dan ignores is that it would be impossible, both legally and practically, for these to operate at a profit. The club and the pool exist solely to benefit the property owners of our community. In this respect they are the same as the trails and the recreation areas, and even the trees and the wildlife. The big difference is that they are expensive to maintain. The Club has never made a profit and it cannot make a profit in this community. Panamanian Law strictly forbids the operation of a business for profit in the Chagres National Park (unless of course it is operated by ANAM, which has no interest in taking over a money losing operation that benefits only homeowners of our community...) Therefore, the idea to enter a contract for some entity to operate the Club, at a loss, to provide funds for capital and operating expenses (CAPEX and OPEX )of the remainder of the community is legally impossible. It will not happen.

I also agree with Dan that we should not need to hire any lawyers from downtown from any source of revenue. There must be lawyers among the homeowners here and any homeowner should be willing to volunteer their services to the good of the community, either as a pro bono publico (for the good of the public) service or at a nominal fee as they would benefit themselves in the process.

We all understand that there are several owners violating the current law and who operate businesses for profit in the Chagres National Park. These have been tolerated by the government; for better or for worse. Will the HOA seek the help of law enforcement to end these illegal businesses? What about the use of fireworks in the community (inside the park)? What about enforcing existing noise ordinances, especially on weekends and holidays? These are areas a HOA needs to pursue as a unified body.

I have heard no one discuss the enforcement of the law. What I see and hear are ideas to further violate the law, by turning the Club and pool into illegal concession for profit businesses (or shutting them down and devaluing our properties and our quality of life). Leslie is correct, the laws of Panama and the rules of ANAM cannot be continuously ignored and violated. To allow yet another for profit business to operate in Chagres National Park would be illegal.

The main thrust, however, appears to be the management of an "installation operations contractor" as I will discuss below.

The most important statement Dan makes is that he believes we need a "ruling entity". We do not live in a kingdom and I doubt that anyone except those who hope to "rule over others" desire to reside in a kingdom where they are subject to the rule of some lord or body of lords. Even our Canadian friends would not choose to be actually ruled by a monarch. ( Nominally the Dominion is "ruled" by Queen Elizabeth or by her offspring. The Dominion pretends to pledge allegiance to the concept long since relegated to the dust bin of history with a Governor General nominally appointed to act as Viceroy of Canada...) No one here will pledge allegiance to any "ruling body".

This "ruling body" cannot, as some without knowledge of contract law seem to believe, operate on a budget as if it were a corporation. Some appear to believe that they could collect funds (although the mechanism to compel voluntary contributions has yet to be delineated) and then dictate the day to day expenditure of the same. This demonstrates a lack of knowledge of reality.

A HOA as envisioned, if it functioned ideally, could collect fees. The HOA could then enter what I will call an "installation operations" contract. It would enter a contract in which it would lay out the requirements it wants fulfilled. For example, a contact could be for the maintenance of the roads; for the operation of a security force; for the maintenance of common areas that would need to be delineated in specific detail down to the specific tasks desired and the frequency with which they would be performed; for the disposal of trash; for the provision of water services; and the list goes on into perpetuity. The more control the HOA desires to have; the more detail it would need to lay out in its proposed contact statement of work. With less specificity would come less control, day to day.

Once a statement of work was created, the HOA would put the contract out for bids. Contractors would then submit bids. The bids would be reviewed and the contract would be granted to the low, responsive, responsible bidder which the HOA contracting officer believed would best perform. The HOA would need a contracting officer to administer the contract on a regular basis to determine compliance and who would interface with the contractor when issues regarding compliance or lack there of arose.

The HOA would enter a contract for the listed services and would pay the agreed upon contract price, which would presumably be a lump sum annually or monthly installments of the lump sum over the course of the contract. Contractors operate their own businesses. They do not answer to the HOA except through the contracting officer to address compliance issues. No contractor would allow the HOA to dictate how it operated its business. No contractor will permit the HOA to conduct internal audits of the business to determine how the owner spends the funds he or she receives for the contract services. To believe otherwise is utter folly.

I have heard some say for years that they desire for Vistamares to provide a detailed accounting. No such contractor will EVER do so. The individual property owners who pay money to the HOA may, and should, demand an accounting of how their money is spent. But I presume all that would be provided is a copy of the contract with copies of the cancelled checks showing the contract price was paid and the balance left in any trust account.

Currently, those of us who pay our TSM are, for all intents and purposes, entering individual (and open ended) contracts with Vistamares to maintain our neighborhood in a manner similar to what we found when we purchased our properties and in the years since we purchased our properties. Whenever any of us become dissatisfied; we are free to discontinue our association with and payments to Vistamares. I understand that the vast majority of property owners choose not to retain the services of Vistamares. It is my understanding that some of those desiring to form the HOA likewise have exercised their right to refuse to retain the services of Vistamares (although this costs more to those of us paying to retain the same level of services to which we have become accustomed).

Should any HOA refuse to engage the services of Vistamares or should any Melo organization refuse or refrain from entering into a contract with the new HOA; the residents may continue to retain the services of Vistamares as we have in the past.

Here is what the HOA proponents need to understand and to expect: Expect to either expend a great deal of money on contract attorneys and contracting officers (who among our neighbors beside my wife and I are experts in such contracting?) to draft and to administer a comprehensive and a very complex contact. Then, understand that the winning bidder will provide only his or her bid stating the price they will demand to perform the services requested. When the cost to obtain the necessary services exceeds the funds available, there will be no Melo treasury to make up the difference and only the work paid for up front and in full will be performed. At this point, we will need to decide whose street to pave and whose to permit to revert to the jungle; who will get water and who will go without; and the list we take for granted goes on and on...

Do not believe for a moment that any contractor will perform charity work. Do not believe for one moment that any contractor will provide one penny of work beyond that which has been paid for or that any item of work not set forth in the statement of work that underlies the contract will be performed. I do not want my home to become a property similar to those owned by friends further up the mountain in Altos de Pacora and beyond. I do not own a helicopter like the Galindo family to access my home...

If the HOA personnel honestly believe they want day to day (quotidian) control and control over every line item of expenditure; the HOA will need to create a corporation to take over the operations and to operate as Vistamares does today. I do not believe anyone contemplates such an impractical action and this will never occur.

In summary: If the idea is that some desire to rule over others of their neighbors; this will never happen. If some desire to manage quotidian operations of the community; this will never happen. If some desire to compel any installation operations contractor to internally audit the contractor's business; this will never happen. If, on the other hand, there is a sincere desire to form a voluntary unincorporated association to give property owners a sense of community and of community pride; no one will oppose such an idea.

Dr. Mark P. Ort

[Norm&Sylvie]

Another idea. In discussion with a friend, we were debating the HOA proposal and returned to the original premise to the idea of forming the HOA: NON-PAYING TSM OWNERS. Under the present conditions we cannot legally prosecute free-loader owners. How about Los Altos de Cerro Azul management takes over formally IDAN responsibilities to provide water to residents. Once the responsibility clearly in the same management office as the one maintaining the development, the cost of the water and the TSM could be added as one invoice. Those not paying the unified invoice would get their water supply cut off. One invoice for multiple services. One major consequence for not paying that invoice. Could it be that simple?

[82CENTINELA]

Good day to all. This is my first post in this fórum. I have been following all these opinions on the HOA and have to agree with Dr. Ort´s thoughts. I did not invest in a property in El Centinela to be fighting with my neighbors. The last thing me and my wife want is another "association" in which there is daily fight over community issues. We pay our TSM in advance every year and as long as Vistamares keeps things in the current state of maintenance and cleanliness we are satisfied.

Best regards,

Alexis Arjona

[iqsimons]

BUEN DIA A TODOS:
Les recordamos la reunión general de propietarios convocada para el día miércoles 27 de enero de 2016.
Se está repartiendo la convocatoria en la garita de entrada en Altos de Cerro Azul, en la oficina de la administración y publicada en diarios de la localidad.
Hora: 3:00 pm a 6:00 pm
Lugar: Salón Paradise Banquet Hall (Vía España – Edificio Arrocha - Antiguo Restaurante
Inter China)

Saludos cordiales,

[Maricia Miller]

Dear Alexis and neighbors
Glad to have your first posting Alexis, because I, like you, love living here in Cerro Azul, and would hate the thought of "daily fight over community issues."
It is a pity that there are a few who feel negativity towards and seem determined to undermine any progress or any good that COULD be done, especially in the area of simple COMMUNICATION. We too pay our TSM in advance, are happy with the response we get from Melo/Vistamares when anything needs attention etc. and have NEVER considered this strange concept floating around which seems to scare everyone, of REPLACING Melo/Vistamares!!!!! NOT..NEVER!

Endless pages of scary stuff about finding contractors to handle everything from garbage to road maintenance and on and on are written about ... I have yet to speak to a single person who believes that we NEED or wish-to replace the existing 'entity' that does the daily running of this COMPLEX Community in which we all choose to live.

Perhaps I am naive and have not spoken to all those nay-sayers who are determined that "nothing will change" or that EVERYTHING will change and hoo-boy, it will cost lots of money!

My husband spent several years as President of our HOA in California, and I can assure you it was a voluntary position and he bore the brunt of the same sort of negative thinking that we hear about this proposed HOA. I recognised the enormous amount of effort and WORK expended in order to move ANYTHING forward but I can assure you, what work was DONE was needed, and the difference might have been the GOODWILL that was generated by those knowing the realities that were faced there.

Here it seems to me that there is FEAR of the unknown, and it saddens me when sensible neighbors go to great lengths to DISCOURAGE any growth toward the ultimate good of the Community. I cannot pretend to know all the issues involved, and I also am prepared to wait on that. Meanwhile, my simplistic hope and desire is for a group of representatives (two from each of our 9 areas?) to get together perhaps once a month, to discuss common concerns .. to share ideas, and perhaps even generate some GOODWILL here where, for the first time, we CAN all have a voice. Why are there such complicated (scary) scenarios painted. WE DO NOT WANT TO TAKE OVER VISTAMARES DAILY RUNNING OF THE OPERATION...They have more years of experience than we will ever have. PLEASE STOP this scare-mongering of hiring expensive contractors to handle everything under the sun!
Sincerely
Maricia Centinela

[Mustique]

I agree 100% with Alexis. We also pay our TSM as required, because it is the right thing to do. However, we also do expect Vistamares to perform their duties and keep things in the current state of repair, as well as safety and cleanliness. We have been satisfied up to now, despite the isolated incidents that have been mentioned.
Kevin and Mary Kay Cox

[Marco]

Dear Maricia and neighbors -

Along with you​,​ we are perplexed by the ​complacency, fears and ​negativity expressed on this active topic. We all have concerns which we hope will be addressed in a civil manner, now and in the future. The PACAR forum is serving us well by allowing the free and courteous exchange of ideas. We hope people get the message that The Homeowners Association is a contin​uing​ path to that ​goal​.

Regular discussion among the property owners in alliance with the Administration will provide improvement​s​ in our lives and security. This will help minimize the acrimonious debate we witness at the infrequent, so-called, general assemblies.

We aren't lawyers, but Les ​was trained and spent his life's career in the communication business. Being aware of ​potential​ pitfalls can only help us work towards continuing improvement. That's a big reason why we appreciate all the comments on the issue.

Many years ago,​ property owners received regular communications from the Administration. ​A​ newsletter bulletin​ was​ ​presented to keep​​ everyone updated on the work being performed. That would be welcome if re​viv​ed.

Also, purchase receipts for goods and services re​ceiv​​ed by the Administration were shown to the owners on a monthly basis. People wonder why that was stopped​. We​ think this is another good idea.

These are only a couple of the positive aspects we can work toward and look forward to in the coming years. With The Homeowners Association there can be many more.

The Committee has prepared a proxy form for those who will be unable to attend the meeting on the 27th. It is attached below. If you would like a hard-copy just let us know.​ ​As you will see, it is non-partisan and can be issued to whomever you wish. We would be happy to represent anyone who ​so ​desires.

Best regards,

Leslie & Cynthia Lieuarnce
233 El Centinela
297-7291

Poder reunión 27 de enero de 2016.docx

(13.73 KiB) Descargado 544 veces

[tsimons]

Hello everyone,
For several months now I have been silent about wanting to respond to some of the issues that have surfaced about a new HOA in Cerro Azul, and I have been surprised Reading some of the comments made by a few owners.

Before getting into the hard issues, I would like to applaud to those who have argumented against the negative views posted in the forum. We at the CDF really do appreciate the courage and the resolve to stand up for your values, especially when the adverse party seems to be on a railroading track of unfounded issues. My thanks and appreciations to those who really believe that our community deserves the best.

Instead, it is really hard to understand the arguments joisted by other, specially coming from owners from the country that is the front runner in HOA development and who have enjoyed the order, peace and stability that it offers. It`s hard to understand that they will deliberately oppose the revival or starting up of our non-existing HOA in Cerro Azul. It appears to me that these few owners should be upfront guiding us with such enormous experience that their country`s HOA offers, instead of crying wolf every time.

I could understand those few owners who are bending or ignoring our laws and getting away with it, because in a HOA environment these owners would have to comply with the law. Imagine for a moment if I were in their country, doing what they are doing here, surely any law –abiding citizen of their country would complain to the authorities and such practice would be stopped, punished and fined. Definitely it would not be allowed. Is it anyway different here.

I`m surprised that these few owners believing that Cerro Azul is a sanctuary, ignore, consciously or not, all of the violations that have occurred or are occurring in Cerro Azul are enormously detrimental to our sanctuary, without anything being done about it.. Let me spell out a few of them, such as the following:

• Allowing the construction of an open-air worship center in el Vigia community with a 150 people capacity
• Allowing the construction of a dog-breading facility between 2 residential houses in el Vigia community
• Allowing owners to built their sewage dumping’s into our streams with detrimental effect on flora, fauna and people downstream.
• Allowing Off-road vehicles and 4 whells to create and ride through man-made side road, eventually used by outlaws, thieves and robbers to assault our community.
• Allowing these 4-wheelss and off-road vehicles to clean and wash their vehicles in the main river going to the waterfall, and eventually to the water plant down Cerro Azul’s road, polluting the river with oil, benzene, gasoline and other chemicals, making it hard or worse for the water treatment plant needed for the 24 de diciembre inhabitants.
• The inexistence of an adequate fire house coupling for engaging the firemen´s houses to the street´s water valves, knowingly that any mayor fire in our pine-infested forest is the most formidable treat for the fire department. This means that if a fire breaks out, not only there will be this difficulty for the firemen, but also due to extreme distances between wáter valves with diferent thread sizes, the fire department with need 1/2 long hoses to huck-up.
• The allowance of fireworks during our Panamanian holidays, with a total disregard for our safety.
• The allowance of firearms and firearms practice in the backyards of some owners, with total disregard of the bullet´s trajectory

I could go on with more of these issues, and believe me there are severall other regarding very delicate issues, for the benefit of those who are blind and deaf to these violations yet wish for a sanctuary at Cerro Azul in their thoughts. It is true that every time we have approached the Administration, they have responded to our complaints, that´s the way we would like it to work for other ítems, yet is it is also true that these problems should be avoided and why where they allowed in the first place. Isn`t that what an HOA should be, advising the Administrator about these issues for the better of everyone?

Seems to me that they just want things not to go to the better side, they would just prefer the actual status quo, believing that the Administration resolves everything. Maybe they don’t know these problems because they are temporary residents, or maybe they would prefer to avoid looing or knowing about them. I know for sure that several owner are aware of these issues, some think twice about getting involved about them, others have been thriving with the Administration to provide a solution, and how do we know about them, because we are up here every weekend (3 ½ equivalents months).

It seems to me that for so many years of not having a say in what the Administrator is supposed to do for the money we are paying him, we should now have a voice in the way things are to be run in Cerro Azul. And to this point I would like to be very specific in my words and in the purposes that are behind the CDF. Very to the contrary of the insinuations that have been raised against the CDF, there is NO INTENTION OF OUSTING THE VISTAMARES ADMINISTRATION, and THERE IS NO INTENTION OF EVER WANTING TO PARTICIPATE IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER IN THE ADMINISTRATION´S FINANCES.

We need a working HOA in Cerro Azul, and I don’t believe that just wishing it is going to make it happen. I also don’t believe that the Administration is all about satisfying our aspirations for a better community. They are a business and their main goal is to make a profit. This I understand since I also have a business. Both purposes don’t align themselves all the way. On the other hand, I ask myself, why can`t we have a saying about what’s to be done in our community, is that so bad, Is that incorrect. Are we wrong about that. In our panamenian municipal government, if they don’t perform accord only, we just vote them out, and you probably have witnessed just that in our last elections. It seem to me that the same happens in US. But dont quote me wrong, we do not want to oust the Administration. We ask for a voice in what they are supposed to do right.

It`s very hard for us to understand what are the reasons behind those who so vehemently oppose what we are doing. I would understand if Vistamares was opposed, and they have done this for years, up to the point that many of the original CDF members gave up with the ongoing conversations on account of their shifting and playing with us all along, since granting voice to the owners collides with their purposes, yet now, they have joined hands with the owners. Maybe they believe that it might work, so why not try it to find out.

We stand by our premises outlines since the very beginning on January 12,2013 when the group was originally initiated. We are a group of property owners who represent NO ONE EXCEPT OURSELVES (“contrary to what some owners seem to repeat every time they post something”).
Our purposes are:

a. To maintain the continuity of the administration by Melo. We do not want to administer ACA.
b. That our properties maintain or improve in value.
c. That we maintain the security, peace and tranquility in the area.
d. That we legalize the administration and the Property Owners Association, as required by the new Law 31 of 18 June 2010, in order to insure that all the property owners pay the TSM.

Dr. Terani Simons
Altos del Frente 89

[colmport]

Friends/Neighbors:
I have been actively following recent developments regarding our community. I have recently raised talking points and provided food for thought to the community. I will continue in such a mission as I have for many decades as a lawyer and as a law professor. Let me continue our Socratic dialog here with the goal of extracting reasoned and logical answers that can be used to persuade our neighbors with facts as opposed to name calling and recrimination.

It troubles me that I detect acrimony and discord. I am witnessing name calling and the casting of aspersions on only one who expresses the least concern about the purchase of "a pig in a poke". It appears to me that those demanding change find the fact that many, likely most, of their neighbors like and want a continuation of the status quo. I have stated previously that the concerns of the majority is very likely a preference for the devil they know rather than the devil they do not know.

To state that all change is "progress" and that any owner who opposes change for the sake of change is opposed to progress is disingenuous. This is a rhetorical tool that we teach lawyers to convince the uneducated masses that those speaking down to them are far more knowledgeable on any given topic and can thus dictate to them what is right. It is a powerful tactic of sophists. Convince the masses that they are too stupid to understand what is in their own best interest.

Not all change is good. Many changes are good but far more changes are bad. Whether a given change represent progress or regression into anarchy can only be judged by history.

If, what is proposed by the proponents of a HOA improves the property values and the quality of life of all owners at a reduced cost; history will judge this endeavor favorably. On the other hand, if the proposal results in devaluation of property and a reduction in the quality of services received and of life generally; history will prove it to have been a folly.

I have not seen endless pages of "scary stuff" that was referenced. I have read an educated and informational exchange of ideas.
The fact that the HOA will either need to assume all of the characteristics of a corporation and take over the operation replacing Vistamares or that it will need to hire one or more contractors (which may be Vistamares if a contract can be agreed upon by both parties) may be scary. It may be scary if those pushing the idea have no business plan and no idea what to do once they achieve the "power" they seek. It is however a FACT. Facts can be frightening but they do not cease to be FACTS merely because they are "scary".

I, for one, am not frightened. I am, however, concerned because I have yet to see the detailed business plan of the HOA promoters. All I have heard is that "nothing will change".

If nothing will change, I am befuddled as to why so much effort is being invested in what is termed "progress" and "growth". The term progress infers change. It assumes, with no facts to back the assumption, positive change.

What the owners need to see before voting to "change" or to "progress" is a detailed business plan and a detailed budget to carry this plan into effect. It may not be the least bit scary. It may, in fact, demonstrate progress. No one can judge at this point in time.
None of the persons who raise any concerns has any clue. Would any one of you jump from an airplane at 10,000 feet (how about 100 feet) without a parachute on the mere assurance that those on the ground will "progress" in such a manner to stop your fall to prevent your death; without any hint as to the plan to save your life? I did not think so.
As to the term "growth"; how will Altos de Cerro Azul grow? Its boundaries are limited. The number of lots is finite. There is nowhere it can grow.
I am in favor of the idea of a group, call it what you wish, that meets weekly; monthly; bi-monthly, etc. to discuss issues, concerns, any anything else. What prevents any group of neighbors from doing that now? NOTHING.

What stops any such group of individuals from expressing their opinions now. NOTHING.

If this group has no intention of actually overseeing the day to day operation of the community, as I hear and see repeated constantly; why all the fuss. Meet with your friends and discuss issues of interest. Address concerns to the Administration, to ANAM, to the police, etc. Why the need to call neighbors who desire to be left alone names or to accuse them of being the enemies of progress, of growth or of the common good? This tactic is socially corrosive. Has anyone ever heard that "you can draw more flies with honey than with vinegar"?

Among the ideas that have been raised as concerns in one posting is a long list of violations o f the current law. I agree with this posting that the law must be enforced. I will not go over that list item by item but I have seen each violation, except the alleged washing of vehicles in the river.

Washing vehicles in the river is already illegal. I doubt that those violating this law restrict their violations to motorcycles and ATVs. I imagine such criminals would likewise wash their cars, their trucks, their busses and any other modes of conveyance. Why were specific modes of transportation being specified? Thankfully, I never witnessed such criminal idiocy. If and when I do, I will report it to the proper authorities.

I agree with my neighbor that violations of the existing criminal laws need to be reported to the authorities. I fail to see how the creation of a new HOA will make it easier to anyone witnessing such a crime to report the same to the proper authorities, either ANAM or the police.

Those who are blind and deaf to the violations of law will remain blind and deaf to the violations of the law. Those who are concerned will remain concerned.

Those who are concerned will have no more power to report violations to the authorities after the formation of a HOA than they have today. The phone lines will not suddenly improve to fiber optic cable. The President of the Republic will not have a special phone on his desk to answer calls from the Altos de Cerro Azul HOA. The chief of ANAM and the Chief of Police will not have any such 'red phones" to Cerro Azul.

If any of our neighbors currently have political contacts that can remedy these violations; they can speak to their friends today. If they lack such connections; the existence of a HOA will not give them the powers of a political insider that they lack today.

Another issue raised, in the midst of the criminal violations, was inadequate fire hose couplings (hydrants). You are correct. There are none anywhere close to my home.

I ask again, however, where is the detailed business plan and the plan of work that will address this issue? How specifically will the HOA remedy this issue and what is the budget to do so? How will the HOA get a hydrant placed near my house? When? At what cost? How will this be accomplished? I can report this issue to Vistamares and wait to see it remedied. In the future, I may be able to renew my concern to another body called a HOA. At this point, what difference does it make?
The promoters should give the owners the specifics as to how the individual concerns outlined will be REDRESSED by the HOA; when and at what expense. Then they should use these specifics as the argument for the formation of the HOA. If all the answers are revealed in a transparent and honest fashion; the promoters will likely get the overwhelming support of the community.
I honestly do not believe that those currently opposing the formation of a HOA are opposed to the concept of a voluntary unincorporated association of owners who voluntarily meets to discuss issues and concerns and who advance their concerns to the proper authorities. I certainly do not.

Those in opposition are concerned that any such organization will believe that it has legal authority that it does not have and that it cannot obtain. They are concerned that a HOA, created after the fact, will be composed of people who believe that it has some authority to dictate to current or future owners how their property may be utilized (other than making reports to proper authorities if an owner violates current law). They are concerned that a HOA will believe that it has the power to divert the TSM to its own treasury or to collect some form of fees or dues from owners who chose not to join. Note: The Melo organization tried that and lost several years ago in the courts. This is why the TSM is not being collected from deadbeats among us...

If Vistamares will continue its management operation; you can believe that it will continue to collect TSM or some form of compensation for its services. What sort of disruption may occur if some owners choose to join a HOA and pay some fee to that organization but then refuse to pay TSM to Vistamares for its services? What if the HOA and Vistamares are unable to reach an agreement on a contract to manage the community? I have yet to see the "Plan B".

Does anyone honestly believe that Vistamares will remain and manage our community if it is not paid to do so at a rate that it demands? Do the security, maintenance and management personnel work without compensation? Did the vehicles we see drop from the sky or were they purchased? Do the vehicles maintain themselves or is there a cost to maintain them?

I am not attempting to be facetious. I am raising honest concerns.

A new organization can most certainly can be created. But, some people advocating its creation seem to believe that the mere creation of a new organization will immediately cause all concerns and despair to end. In recent "campaigns" feel good nonsense with no substance was all that was fed to the people who were left to "eat cake"; as a French Queen once quipped. As I recall, she lost her head to a guillotine.

I am 100% in agreement with the proposals to maintain the community as we know it and to maintain our current management.
I am 100% in agreement that all owners want our property to increase in value.
I am 100% in agreement that security, peace and tranquility must be maintained and that laws must be enforced as discussed above.
I am not certain that a HOA is necessary to accomplish these goals but I have no objection to any group of like minded people gathering to express common desires, goals, concerns, etc. Many people may join such an organization once they see its business plan and budget.

I am concerned, however, with the statement that 100% of property owners be compelled to pay TSM. I agree all should pay their fair share. As I stated above; Melo tried to collect from those who do not have a deed restriction requiring such involuntary payments and who have not voluntarily agreed to pay. The management lost in Court.

More than one local attorney in the City has rendered an opinion, independently on one another (one of whom was consulted by the promoters of the HOA), regarding the ability to compel membership in a HOA and the ability to collect fees from non members. The universal consensus is, that in Panama, just as in all 50 states (and the 4 territories) the United States and all provinces of the Dominion of Canada, that property owners cannot be compelled to join a HOA, after they take ownership of a property lacking a deed restriction requiring such membership. No HOA may compel any non member owner to pay any fees to the HOA unless such owner voluntarily joins the HOA or voluntarily signs a contract obligating himself or herself to do so.

If the promoters of the HOA honestly believe that the law can be circumvented or that the law is not the law; what are the specifics of the plan to collect TSM, past, present and in the future, from those who will not pay? Please lay out for the owners the specific procedures, in detail, as to how the funds will be collected.
If the Melo organization, with all of its money, prowess and financial resources cannot collect this money and if it has lost in the courts; please state, with specificity, how the new management association will be more politically powerful. How will the HOA overcome the law and the court precedents?

Let us assume for purposes of argument (and I dislike making assumptions) that a demand is made and rejected. Let us assume that a court over rules the prior rulings against Melo and renders a judgment in favor of a HOA. Please state in detail how will this judgment be collected from a deadbeat who refuses to pay? Can it intercept their nonexistent tax refunds? In my experience, pursuing judgment debtors without bank accounts to garnish is a waste of time and of money. In most cases, the cost to collect, even collectable judgments, exceeds the amount recovered (before legal fees).

The owners need to see the detailed collection procedure. They need to be provided with a breakdown of the costs to collect and with that the cost per dollar collected.

The lofty goal of convincing all owners to "do the right thing" and to pay is repeated over and over again. Never once has anyone laid out in detail the plan; the procedure and the cost to attain this honorable goal.

Thus, I will end where I began. There is no reason why the group who wants to form an association cannot and should not do so. Let the promoters set forth their detailed business plan and budget as a campaign document to win the favor of their neighbors who may be skeptical.

There is also no reason why those individual should demean, degrade, criticize or castigate those who have no desire to join such a group as "scary" or as discouraging progress. Remember the saying that "one man's trash is another man's treasure". Let each of us live our lives in peace and harmony. Let us each leave those with whom we may or may not disagree likewise live in peace on our own properties without casting aspersions.

I am but a humble professor of law (and trial lawyer). My job is to engage in Socratic dialog. It is to provoke thought and to teach persons to think; to think logically and to think for themselves.

I hope my contribution to the discussions involving the community we all love has achieved my career mission of educating and of teaching each member of the community to think for themselves using logic and avoiding succumbing to rhetoric and to sophistry. Once deductive reason is applied to logical thought; most people can make informed decisions for themselves. Our common goal should be to assure that our neighbors do not act in haste so that they can later regret in leisure.

Dr. Mark P. Ort

[9FORTALEZA]

Estimados Vecinos,

Toda esta discusión respecto a la creación o no de la Asociación de Propietarios ha despertado algunas dudas en mi.
1- Por qué debemos nosotros realizar y financiar este proceso cuando en Panama esto lo debe realizar el constructor y/o promotor del proyecto?
2- Si el proceso por el cual se crearon las asociaciones de cada barriada estuvo amañado o mal realizado, corresponde a al promotor corregir su error.
3- Ya fuímos llevados a un proceso parecido con el famoso "Manual de Propietario" que no ha rendido ningún beneficio real aparte de que Vistamarers apenas se aprobó el manual consiguió permisos para talar y nivelar más terrenos para la venta. Este manual está lleno de reglamentaciones que nadie cumple debido a que no hay una autoridad que los haga cumplir.
4- No creo que la existencia de la Asociación per sé, haga que se cumplan las reglamentaciones y leyes que ya existen.
5- Muchos enuncian quejas muy graves sin pruebas de ningún tipo, esto es como gritar al viento. Típico de nuestra sociedad.
6- Ahora Vistamares es responsable ante cada uno de nosotros y como grupo de los servicios que pagamos y podemos exigirlos y demandarlos en caso de no cumplir. Con la creación de la Asociación esa responsabilidad se traslada a nosotros mismos y Vistamares es responsable de uno o varios contratos que puede rescindir.
7- Pienso que estamos haciendole el juego a Vistamares para que eventualmente pueda salir bien librada cuando termine de vender los lotes y quiera dejar el proyecto. De la misma forma que hicimos con el Manual de Propietario.
8- Le corresponde a Vistamares arreglar el enredo que hizo con las asociaciones de cada barriada y eso sí debemos exigirlo.
9- Cada barriada debe tener su propia asociación como en un principio pero debe existir una organización que las integre para que puedan actuar al unisono frente a la administración y otros retos futuros.
10- Considero que poner las responsabilidades donde deben de estar no es promover el status quo, sino proteger nuestros intereses. No estoy de acuerdo en que se nos quiera vender la Asociación como la solución a todos los males. La asociacion/es son algo que debió existir de manera correcta desde el principio, creada por el promotor y traspasada a los propietarios pero, por alguna razón alguien pensó que era mejor retener el control de estas. Ahora le corresponde a este mismo ente arreglar su error pero, no pretender que nosotros los propietarios allanemos el paso y financiemos la puesta en regla de lo que se dejó de hacer o se hizo de mala forma.
11- Recalco, la creación de la Asociación no va a obligar a nadie a que cumpla con los reglamentos y leyes ya existentes. Eso es trabajo de las autoridades respectivas que lastimosamente no hacen su trabajo.

Guillermo Angulo
Fortaleza 9 y 10